General discussion of OpenCATS

Moderators: RussH, cptr13

Forum rules: Just remember to play nicely once you walk through the door. You can disagree with us, or any other commenters in this forum, but keep comments directed to the topic at hand.
User avatar
By RussH
#47
Yes - there is absolutely nothing stopping an effort to reproduce the functionality of CATS. I reckon that in reality it's the workflow that'd be difficult rather than the coding - but what do I know about that?!?!

As far as CATS today is concerned, the CPL is quite clear, and we've both articulated it in earlier posts - what the restrictions are, when any submissions would have to be made via the CPL and what could be contributed via the GPL.

If there was a separate project to reproduce the CATS functionality from a different codebase - but within the GPL, I'd be quite happy to host that effort as-well alongside the existing CATS community.. .but at the moment I can see that this community is a collection of users, and not developers. Happy to be proved wrong though!
User avatar
By RussH
#50
One interesting point I've found is that cats 0.5.0 is shown as being released under the unmodified MPL.. Therefore without the appendices which cause some of your issues. If a copy of that release could be found, we could check to see if it's a basic framework that can be expanded to reflect the newer functionality in 0.9.x, or if it's since been rewritten from the ground-up..

Anyone got a copy of it?

RussH
By MePHiSTY
#53
There is a 0.5 version at sourceforge.net and licensed under CPL too.
By Jos
#83
I do have a copy of 0.6.1 and 0.7.1...let me see where I can find the upload button here.. :oops:
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By Jos
#84
and here is 0.7.1

PS Russ, maybe you would move these downloads to the download section
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User avatar
By RussH
#85
yes - certainly will do - I'm just in the office building a new desktop. Zzzzz.. Will move them at the weekend.
You seem to have come out of hiding, Jos :-D
By asimbaig
#86
RussH wrote:One interesting point I've found is that cats 0.5.0 is shown as being released under the unmodified MPL.. Therefore without the appendices which cause some of your issues. If a copy of that release could be found, we could check to see if it's a basic framework that can be expanded to reflect the newer functionality in 0.9.x, or if it's since been rewritten from the ground-up..

Anyone got a copy of it?

RussH
I just joined this forum and am catching up on the posts. I'll try to keep up with this board, and make sure that facts remain facts and that Cognizo and my team is not misrepresented. I have seen this happen on some blogs and I want to make sure that it doesnt happen.

All versions of CATS were released under CPL (CATS Public License). CATS progressed from 0.5 all the way up to 0.9.1 without any re-writes.

Asim
952-232-0880 x101
asim@catsone.com
By asimbaig
#88
RussH wrote:
It's worth noting that I raised this with Asim via email - and he wanted the CPL honoured - therefore not releasing the original code under the GPL.

RussH
CATS does not contain a single line of code from GPL. We re-invented the wheel everytime we had to write something that was easily available under GPL. There were many many instances, where we had to go through incredible and painstaking care not to violate any other open source license including GPL. That is one of the many reasons why CATS was not released under GPL.

Asim
952-232-0880 x101
asim@catsone.com
User avatar
By RussH
#97
Hi Asim,

I didn't imply that there was any GPL code within CATS - obviously the two licenses wouldn't play nicely alongside one another. I see you've commented about allot of the 'CATS sucks' posts - and whilst I understand you've put in a great deal of effort into developing the product, I'm sure you can appreciate that the user community was abruptly terminated when the O/S release was withdrawn - there was no 'easy out' for some folks, and regardless of whether they'd paid for this software or not, some companies were running their business on this software which was suddenly removed. I think it's fair that those users (note that these aren't developers) can vent their feelings here without an immediate rebuttal from yourself.

I for one think that you could have changed the business model to ensure that you still could offer an Open Source and 'Professional' version with additional value add.

However - that said, I hope we get over the rocky 'separation' - and that you and your colleagues join in from time to time and that you might look fondly at the project rather than defending historic decisions that can't now be changed. For example - you're welcome to offer any services to the community in the professional services section.

Welcome Back.. let's see what happens
By asimbaig
#105
(long posting alert)...

Right. I understand your point too. About the abrupt termination, well there was no other easy way. I suppose in retrospect, things could have been done more smoothly. I am not sure how exactly, but I see your point.

As I stated in another e-mail, starting a "business/vertical" application as open source is a bad idea. Its easy to build a community when its a utility, a game, a technical app, a database engine etc. CRM, ATS, healthcare, finance type applications are not good candidates for open source projects. I am sure someone could argue with me here and give me examples of successful o/s project in the above fields. Trust me, I have studied each and every one in great detail. I have been using o/s for 17 years. I have released my own code in o/s many times before.

Take the example of SugarCRM. Yes it has a thriving o/s community. But if you look closely you will find 28M in financing from Kliener Perkins (the guys who funded netscape, amazon, yahoo). After 4 years of being "open source" SugarCRM still doesnt allow code from outside. They have a tight control over the direction of the project, and I can totally understand why (feature creeps, usability etc)

Other times business when o/s apps have been successful has been is when some lone founder (who happens to be a domain expert) writes an app and then slowly over a long period of time releases it under GPL. Wordpress is one good example. In those cases, The author almost always has a day job and doesnt have to fund a team of developers.

CATS business model was difficult to begin with. We got a lot of criticism from the likes of the "Open Software Foundation" for CPL not being a true open source license. We were getting over a 100 e-mails, instant chat requests, calls a day. When we were not able to answer, people were getting really angry for not helping them (for free..mind you).

I posted a question " Making a Living Building Open Source Software?" http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/27/1934249
on slashdot back in Jan 2006. Hundreds of replies/suggestions from technical users, very much like this forum here. I read each one of them and we applied most of suggestions, but none worked. We just couldnt make $$$ from the o/s project, while our costs had grown up to $20k/month when we stopped open source.

Yes my team and I have been frustrated and saddened by how things turned out. I was sincerely hoping for CATS to be a successful o/s project and pave the way for others. Somethings/ideas while great in theory are never meant to see the light of the day. I hope someone proves me wrong, and does indeed invent/create a sustainable model for a BUSINESS type o/s application. I know a lot of people are trying and I am watching the space carefully.

In the meantime, my challenge is to come up with enough money to pay for the current team expenses using the hosted model.

Finally, I am a recruiter. I run a recruitment company with 6-8 recruiters. I have called pretty much every ATS vendor and reviewed the software and the pricing. I know the fee structures involved in the recruiting business. I find it intellectually dishonest, when a recruiter charges $15,000 in placement fee (say 1 placement a month) and then cringes on the thought of paying me $29/month for providing a professionally hosted application. My datacenter infrastructure alone was over $25,000 to build.

I like the enthusiasm of some of the people here. I admire it. I am sure they are all sincere. My hats off to all of them. I wish I could find a happy medium and support this community. My problem was not with the CATS enthusiasts. My problem was with over 90% of CATS users who were running successful recruiting companies but wouldnt pay a penny and yet wanted support from my team for free. Some of you who will be reading this know, I gave over 20-30 professional licenses at no cost to some of our "advanced" users on the forums. This was our token of appreciation. We helped whenever we could. I would be more then happy to help again. I would be more then happy to give free professional accounts to the same advanced users/beta testers on our hosted platform (quid pro quo). I will talk to my team members and see what we could come up with.

I will be glad to participate in this forum when time permits, but I am not sure, if I will have the time for it. I will try to be a lurker at least :-)

I am always available on phone. Anyone is welcome to call and chat!

Asim
952-232-0880 x101
asim@catsone.com

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